Talk:The Constant/Theories
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Clean up
Who ever contributed to the clean up of this article (especially the time section) did an excellent job. Keep it up! -- Nusentinsaino talk contribs email 10:00, 29 February 2008 (PST)
I think we need to be careful about cleaning up the page too quickly. In the 24 to 48 hours after an episode airs, theories are stated, hashed and rehashed on the Theories board. Obviously, we do not want long winded debates (which should be redirected to this Talk page), but you also don't want to be using a sledge hammer where a scalpel is the more appropriate tool. Let some of the ideas and theories play out -- if something seems too messy, move it to the talk page with a comment so that people know where to find it. Let's make this a collaborative effort and not be overly authoritarian... --Chuck 10:55, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Bearing to leave the island
[moved from article because it's discussion, not theory -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 03:35, 29 February 2008 (PST)]
- Lapidus was told by Daniel to follow a specific heading - 305 degrees.
- 305 (or 3:05) was written on Eko's stick (and there was a direction word in that inscription)
- However, Ben told Michael to follow the specific heading of 325 degrees.
- Michael and Walt may have been thrown back in time, accounting for the older Walt that John sees.
- It's not Walt, it's the Monster/the Island/Jacob.
- If they were at different points on the island (they were), they would have approached the same fissure in the electromagnetic field from different angles, hence the different bearings/headings.
- The destruction of the Swan hatch changed the EM structure of the Island, which Daniel is able to calculate and therefore gives the new bearing of 305.
- If you take the same heading out that you took in the way in, you would pass through the same 'amount' of time distortion and get back to the same 'time' you came from. By taking a different bearing you experience a different distortion on the way in then on the way out causing you to 'jump' forward in time a bit when crossing the barrier. Think of it as a ring around the island of distorted time. Crossing this ring causes you to perceive time passing normally, but relative to the outside & inside observer much more time has passed. At different points around the island this distortion is at a different rate. So 325 might have little or no distortion, while 305 might have a bit more. Daniel knows the path they took in worked, so following the same path back out shouldn't be too bad. However if they accidentally strayed to 310 or 300 who knows how 'bad' that distortion could be. Now since radio traffic moves near the speed of light, time dilations would be minimal. This is why when they fired the missile you could hear it on the radio in real-time, but it arrived 30 mins later then the boat perceived it to have arrived. This is similar to the twin-experiment Einstein proposed where if one twin traveled at the speed of light, the stationary twin would perceive much more time passing then the one in motion. Maybe everyone leaving the island is momentarily accelerated to near the speed of light. N1ck0 23:01, 1 March 2008 (PST)
- If they leave from different locations on The Island, the heading to the wormhole/exit would be at different headings. Not like entering an atmosphere, where you have to be pointed a certain way to avoid friction - if there's a door, it's heading would change in relation to where you stand to look at it.
- Michael and Walt may have been thrown back in time, accounting for the older Walt that John sees.
- Ben lied and gave Michael and Walt a false bearing. 305 is correct, not 325.
- Michael and Frank left the island from different points. 305 was the correct bearing from the helicopter's departure point, whereas it was also correct from the docks.
- I'm not so sure about this. Bearings are absolute, not relative. However, different parts of the island could have different bearings to successfully leave it.
- The bearing at which you are to leave the Island is relative to the person. This is determined by either how close they are to an 'exit point' or that they follow the bearing at which they entered the Island.
- Actually, the bearing is relative to the location you are at and the point you want to reach -- not the person. For example, the bearing to get to New York from Chicago is very different from the bearing to get to New York from Miami (regardless of who the person is).
- Is the bearing a point or a path? If it's just one point, like a hole in a cloth, then the statements about relativity to the location would apply. However, if it's a specific path, like a bunny hopping through a hollow log, then the bearing would always be the same and the entrance hole would be relative to your location. --macosx 06:43, 29 February 2008 (PST)
- Actually, the bearing is relative to the location you are at and the point you want to reach -- not the person. For example, the bearing to get to New York from Chicago is very different from the bearing to get to New York from Miami (regardless of who the person is).
- The bearing at which you are to leave the Island is relative to the person. This is determined by either how close they are to an 'exit point' or that they follow the bearing at which they entered the Island.
- I'm not so sure about this. Bearings are absolute, not relative. However, different parts of the island could have different bearings to successfully leave it.
- Michael and Frank left the island from different points. 305 was the correct bearing from the helicopter's departure point, whereas it was also correct from the docks.
Jack and His Dad and Side Effects
Discussion moved from Theory Page:
- Future Jack experiences the consciousness time travel during the events of "Through the Looking Glass." This is why he uses numbing medications and alcohol. This is why he mentions his dad being alive. He's confused by his time travels.
- Or maybe Jack's dad is the one switching between times.
- If his consciousness from another time reinhabited his body post-crash, this would explain why his body wasn't in the coffin.
- A dead body can't get out of coffin!
- Whos to say he was dead and not just "switching" and apparently dead for that time. Like George on the sick bay floor may not be dead, but just stuck. There could be some potential to switch back.
- A dead body can't get out of coffin!
- If his consciousness from another time reinhabited his body post-crash, this would explain why his body wasn't in the coffin.
- Or maybe Jack's dad is the one switching between times.
Constant
Discussion moved from Theories page:
- Constant - The show's producers had always said that there was a reason characters appeared in each others flashbacks - a significant reason, it wasn't just accident. What if the writers have set it up so that the characters can be each other's constants?
- Everyone on the Island received a "mega dose" of electromagnetic radiation when Desmond used the fail-safe key, making all of them susceptible to "time shifting." A Constant has to be someone who directly affected someone's future in the past. Five of the survivors left the Island with five of their Constants staying, so each would have a corresponding "anchor" in the other time "zone." The person in the coffin was the 6th member of the Oceanic 6, who wanted off the Island, even though they didn't have the proper Constant left on the Island (or their Constant died later). A seventh person, Claire, managed to provide her Constant, in the form of Aaron, who is being raised by Kate as her own. Jack, even though he is Claire's half-brother, could not be considered her Constant, since he did not directly have anything to do with her life before meeting her on the Island. Even Ben now would need a Constant on the Island if he ever wants to leave the Island again. Since we see him and Sayid in a flashforward off the Island, Ben's Constant may be Annie, who may still be somewhere on the Island and this fact will be revealed in a future episode. The fate of the other survivors (the non-speaking roles on the show) is probably not good.
- Faraday said that there are side effects only if you don't stick to the 305 heading. So, not everybody leaving the island would need a constant, as long as that condition is met.
- Not everyone on the Helicopter has been exposed to a mega-dose of electromagnetic radiation. They didn't need to be worried about having a Constant, Desmond did.
- Faraday said that there are side effects only if you don't stick to the 305 heading. So, not everybody leaving the island would need a constant, as long as that condition is met.
- Aaron may be Kate's constant. This could explain her kidnapping him and raising him as her own. This could also explain Jack not wanting to see him, because it reminds him of the evil deed. Jack and Hurley may have no constant which could be contributing to their mental downward spirals. Ben and Sayid may be each other's contstants.
- A Constant would have to be someone who DIRECTLY affected someone's past. Aaron has no connection to Kate's past, nor does Sayid to Ben. Hurley affected Locke's life because he owned the box company which burnt down and Locke was out of a job, which changed the course of his life. Perhaps we haven't seen Jack's Constant connection as of yet, or Jack's Constant is his father, who, on the Island is alive in a different "time." In the Missing Pieces episode, we see Christian Shepard talking to Vincent, just before Jack wakes up after the crash, and Christian says to Vincent "We have work to do."
- There is no evidence that a constant MUST be someone who has "DIRECTLY affected someone's past." All Faraday said was that it must be someone who is both in the past and future who you have a connection with. There is no statement as to when the connection must be forged. --Qwerty7412369 15:38, 29 February 2008 (PST)
- Daniel says something, it is Desmond who asks him if it can be a person. This may or may not be important?
- Is it possible that the past that the person goes back to is actually after the crash on the island? How do we know how far back or forward, whichever the case may be, people are traveling? That could make anyone on the island anyone else's constant regardless of past connections
- Daniel says something, it is Desmond who asks him if it can be a person. This may or may not be important?
- There is no evidence that a constant MUST be someone who has "DIRECTLY affected someone's past." All Faraday said was that it must be someone who is both in the past and future who you have a connection with. There is no statement as to when the connection must be forged. --Qwerty7412369 15:38, 29 February 2008 (PST)
- There is nothing in the canon of the series (as of yet) that would indicate that Kate "kidnapped" Aaron or the fact that she has him at a future date was due to an "evil deed."
- A Constant would have to be someone who DIRECTLY affected someone's past. Aaron has no connection to Kate's past, nor does Sayid to Ben. Hurley affected Locke's life because he owned the box company which burnt down and Locke was out of a job, which changed the course of his life. Perhaps we haven't seen Jack's Constant connection as of yet, or Jack's Constant is his father, who, on the Island is alive in a different "time." In the Missing Pieces episode, we see Christian Shepard talking to Vincent, just before Jack wakes up after the crash, and Christian says to Vincent "We have work to do."
- Everyone on the Island received a "mega dose" of electromagnetic radiation when Desmond used the fail-safe key, making all of them susceptible to "time shifting." A Constant has to be someone who directly affected someone's future in the past. Five of the survivors left the Island with five of their Constants staying, so each would have a corresponding "anchor" in the other time "zone." The person in the coffin was the 6th member of the Oceanic 6, who wanted off the Island, even though they didn't have the proper Constant left on the Island (or their Constant died later). A seventh person, Claire, managed to provide her Constant, in the form of Aaron, who is being raised by Kate as her own. Jack, even though he is Claire's half-brother, could not be considered her Constant, since he did not directly have anything to do with her life before meeting her on the Island. Even Ben now would need a Constant on the Island if he ever wants to leave the Island again. Since we see him and Sayid in a flashforward off the Island, Ben's Constant may be Annie, who may still be somewhere on the Island and this fact will be revealed in a future episode. The fate of the other survivors (the non-speaking roles on the show) is probably not good.
Theories removed from Theories page as speculative or without support
If you think they are more than speculation, add support (but not spoilers!)...
- The phrase "If anything goes wrong, Desmond Hume will be my constant" was not written by Daniel Faraday, but by someone else who has owned that journal. Charles Widmore is a possibility.
- Minkowski will be the second "dead" character to have a flashback. We will learn about his struggles with space-time in a future episode.
Regarding "Constant" Theory
As it is currently stated, the "Constant" Theory is valid.
"A Constant may be a person in both the current time and the "jump-time" to who the time-traveler can connect. The show's producers had always said that there was a reason characters appeared in each others flashbacks - a significant reason, it wasn't just accident. The writers have set it up so that the characters can be each other's constants."
The statement, as I have written it, does not state that the constant MUST be a person, it merely offers the theory that the survivors MAY be each others' constant, as the constant must be something or someone to whom the time-travler is connected in a meaningful way. It does not say when that connection is formed, thus it could be a past relationship, or a future relationship. Furthermore, I offer the definition of the constant as given by Faraday in "The Constant" as well as the repeated claims of the show's producers as to the importance and yet-unrevealed significance of the character-crossovers in the fashbacks as evidence to support my theory. Please let it stand. Thanks --Qwerty7412369 21:30, 29 February 2008 (PST)
Libby being a time traveler
She's dead. Surely if she was aware of things she could have prevented her own death which did seem to be mere circumstance. If for no other reason, I at least vote that the title of that section be called "Libby was a time traveler." "Is" implies she is still around. She's dead as a doornail, wormfood. And sometimes circumstance is circumstance. Are we going to say that Locke's daddy and Sawyer's Sawyer is some part of some overarching scheme? What about Claire and Jack being related, yep, that was totally time travel there too. Oh and when Rose was talking to Jack on t he plane, that was time travel. Mr Vain talk contribs email 12:22, 1 March 2008 (PST)
Discussion removed from Theories page
- I am a physics major and currently in quantum classes (so this Faraday stuff i eat right up). Anyways quantum physics says (allow me to simplify) that there is some uncertainty in position, momentum, energy, whatever. I dont want to get into a lot of detail here without the aid of pictures graphs and stuff. As a really lame example...If i build a box, and I put my cat in this box and shut the lid. Now theres a real good chance my cat is in that box. But theres also a reaaaaaaallly small chance that when i open the box, my cat is gone (dont worry she should be close by, and ok if tunneling through the wall of the box didnt mess up her atoms)! This is where alternate dimensions and teleportation and all that theoretical stuff can be thought to come from. Note however, this chance is very small, but with sufficiently small mass or a whole lot of energy the chances go up.Matt 07:30, 1 March 2008 (PST)
- Yah so i forgot to mention what the 'quantum' part of it is. Basically the waveform probability curve changes with quantum (discrete energy level) state. The higher the quantum number(s) the more oscillation of the probability curve. So by having Desmonds consciousness in a quantum state, i dont think they are saying his consciousness has discrete levels (unless those levels are based on time), but they are saying its behaving in a quantum way; where the probability of Des's head being in one place or another is uncertain. Its interesting that they say the time-switches last longer and happen more rapidly after longer periods of time away from the island. This may correlate to an increasing or decreasing quantum state, but I havent put enough thought into that to decide if thats plausible. Matt 07:43, 1 March 2008 (PST)
Re 108:1 time ratio
- Every 1 minute in the real world is 108 minutes on the Island. In The Constant, Jack says that Sayid and Desmond had been gone for a day and a half, when it should only be a 20 minute trip. If you do the math, you convert 36 hours (a day and a half) into minutes, which is 2,160 minutes, and divide by 20 minutes, the ratio is 108 minutes to 1 minute. This can definitely be related to why the button in the Hatch had to be pushed every 108 minutes.
- Nice, theory, but that can't be right: The 96 days on the island would equate to more than 28 years in real time.
- Other way around. If the realworld time / island time ratio is 1:108, then what we're looking for is x:138240 (number of minutes on the island - 96 days times 24 hours times 60 minutes. 138240 divided by 108 solves to x = 1280, or 21 hours and 20 minutes, which would imply that in the real world, the plane crashed less than a day ago. If this were the case, the helicopter would be landing on the freighter seconds after it took off from the freighter.
- Except your first problem is Michael's mother said they'd been gone for about 2 months, as well as how long they were searching for the plane. This theory fails. ---- LOSTonthisdarnisland 07:38, 17 April 2008 (PDT)
- Other way around. If the realworld time / island time ratio is 1:108, then what we're looking for is x:138240 (number of minutes on the island - 96 days times 24 hours times 60 minutes. 138240 divided by 108 solves to x = 1280, or 21 hours and 20 minutes, which would imply that in the real world, the plane crashed less than a day ago. If this were the case, the helicopter would be landing on the freighter seconds after it took off from the freighter.
- Nice, theory, but that can't be right: The 96 days on the island would equate to more than 28 years in real time.
Changing the Future Response
Theory:
- The future cannot be changed. The woman Desmond meets when he is buying the ring says so. And we know from Desmond saving Charlie repeatedly that changes can be made but time will correct itself. So Desmond could not change the fact that Charlie was destined to die, but he could alter the method of death. Thus, some changes can be made, but they will not prevent the future from happening.
- It would appear we have a problem then, wouldn't we? How would Penelope know to wait for Desmond's call? The woman saying the future can't be changed is contradicted with this episode. --Xbenlinusx 16:27, 1 March 2008 (PST)
- But this alteration occurs in the past, if the present is 2004. Desmond-1996-mind goes to Desmond-2004-body where he learns the need to change 1996-reality. So Desmond-1996 goes and alters 1996-reality with information from the future. The future was already changed, but it was changed by the past version of himself while in the past. This could be why Desmond had to revert to his 1996 state, because otherwise he would have been altering his own memory with every action he did in the past. This is going to be hard to follow in words but... maybe you cannot change the future when you haven't already been there in the past. N1ck0 22:41, 1 March 2008 (PST)
- Actually if Desmond-2004-mind went to Desmond-1996-Body he could have caused a grandfather paradox, accidentally causing himself to not end up traveling back in time. So he had to revert to his 1996 mind so he could still fulfill his future fate. N1ck0 22:46, 1 March 2008 (PST)
- But this alteration occurs in the past, if the present is 2004. Desmond-1996-mind goes to Desmond-2004-body where he learns the need to change 1996-reality. So Desmond-1996 goes and alters 1996-reality with information from the future. The future was already changed, but it was changed by the past version of himself while in the past. This could be why Desmond had to revert to his 1996 state, because otherwise he would have been altering his own memory with every action he did in the past. This is going to be hard to follow in words but... maybe you cannot change the future when you haven't already been there in the past. N1ck0 22:41, 1 March 2008 (PST)
Plausible sounding theory, in theory
"We saw that Sayid experienced no side-effects. This is because he wasn't on the Island during the hatch implosion; he was on the boat with Sun and Jin. And there were six more of the survivors who were not in the area of the hatch during the electromagnetic event: Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley were with Ben and the Others, and Michael and Walt were in the process of leaving. Four of these people are already confirmed as members of the Oceanic Six, plus Ben is also off the Island."
- This theory seems plausible at first, until you realise it fails because Aaron was as close as anyone on the beach, and he's one of the O6. -- LOSTonthisdarnisland 07:35, 17 April 2008 (PDT)
