Talk:Hieroglyphs
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Created the "Hieroglyphs" page to use the noun ("hieroglyph") instead of the adjective ("hieroglyphic"), and redirected "Hieroglyphics" here. It's a common mistake, and people are likely to search that way.
--aurora glacialis 04:40, 7 April 2006 (PDT)--aurora glacialis 04:40, 7 April 2006 (PDT) Maybe all links to this page should be updated, since it was probably done wrong in other articles, too? --aurora glacialis 09:25, 28 February 2006 (PST)
theory moved from article:
- Some people say that you could see pictures of people when the hieroglyphs flipped. Although that is not a very commonly accepted theory.
probably what was meant is the possible "child"-hieroglyph, which is a symbolic representation of a person (a child). There are no actual photos/images of people visible in slowmotion, but the person-glyph appears several times. This is already covered in the article --aurora glacialis 03:21, 19 March 2006 (PST)
I just wanted to point out that the hieroglyphs are edited into the scene. They probably have two flipcard timers, one with the numbers and one with the hieroglyphs. That's what causing the pink when they blend the two together. Also, the locking of a glyph is edited in by adding a blur, an empty spot and then the locked glyph. I don't think basing any assumptions about the story development and theories on the technical details of how this is being done for TV is a wise course of action. --skks 23:28, 23 March 2006 (PST)
- Still I think it has to be said it is pretty lame to have white and red backgrounds in the same slot and not notice that both colors exist during normal operation of the timer. --Bugmenot 15:48, 31 May 2006 (PDT)
Nothing happened at all?
According to "Henry", nothing happened after the hieroglyphs were shown. This turned out to be a red herring? --Jambalaya 03:11, 7 April 2006 (PDT)
Well - don't trust no-one ;-( - esp not Henry. Although I believe him in this case. It's not proven though. Would fit that Skinner Box Theory though. A lot of things in the Hatch to scare people into pushing the button. Countdowns , Incidents, Warning films, Alarm sounds, strange Glyphs appearing.... makes sense to me. But it's not proven, so....
Yes he was lying. If you want proof look at what happened when we KNOW nobody did the sequence.--TomRiddle 04:14, 22 March 2008 (PDT)
Why say this?
The interpretation for the bird symbol (vulture) makes the following note: "The direction the bird faces typically indicates the direction the text should be read (right-to-left in this case)." However, the word is read left to right to form 'swda'. Not knowing a lot about hieroglyphs, I'm wondering why this was even brought up if it doesn't seem to apply here?
- There seems to be a misunderstanding/typo or a poor communication on the part of the writer. This site: http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Intro/node8.html#SECTION00035000000000000000
says that the hieroglyphs that represent animated beings look toward the beginning of the text. In --Moo 06:27, 12 July 2006 (PDT)
Something of Interest
I found a website talking about Egyptian relics in Australia and thought it might be relevent to the show. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~classblu/egypt/egypt.htm
The website states that, "There is approx 2 hrs drive North of Sydney, a rocky outcrop that contains c. 250 Egyptian hieroglyphics, etched into 2 opposing wall surfaces."
Also there is a link to some photographs of them courtesy of someone named Gwenn Stoney. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~classblu/egypt/glyphpic.htm
Now take a look at the 5th picture down.
It has the symbols of, what looks to me like a sword/flame, and the bird right next to each other just like on the counter.
Add another twist. There is also a link to the story the glyphs tell. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~classblu/egypt/article.htm
It says, "The rock walls chronicle a tragic saga of ancient explorers shipwrecked in a strange and hostile land, and the untimely death of their royal leader..."
I'm trying to find out more information on these things. I will update this if I find out any more. If anyone else has more information on these Hieroglyphs in Australia, please post it here.
--Typhyny 23:57, 18 May 2006 (PDT)
Purpose of Hieroglyphics
Seriously, what could be the purpose of the hieroglyphics? While Dharma members may study hieroglyphics, the Swan Station occupants may not, and thus can't read them. And the alarm, generator, and shaking are enough to tell someone something is wrong, so the hieroglyphics wouldn't be needed for that part. The timer just says how much time is left...why put symbols on it? I can't think up one theory about the hieroglyphics, except that it's just a cool additon to the show. Can anyone else? --Eridani 23:11, 25 May 2006 (EST)
Think about it - Egyptian mythology was like, obsessed, with an Afterlife, but to get there, you had to pass trials in life, lead honest living etc, etc. Perhaps the Island is some sort of "limbo-purgatory-trial Afterlife", testing the Losties to see which of them can pass the test. Also links the fact Locke says the island is "testing him" and "demands a sacrifice" (sometimes, deities were buried with loved ones, slaves, cats, to aid them in the Afterlife, and were not normally willing participants, just like the unexpected deaths of Shannon, Boone, Ana-Lucia, Libby...)--Gojiita 02:15, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
New Glyphs
Someone look at this picture: http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Countdown-destroyed.png
Now... how come this sequence is different from anything we've got pictures on the Hieroglyphics page now? If the glyphs locked in at the system failure notice, how come they've changed when the metal stress started?
Look a lil closer and try toning down the red, they just appear different because the bottom half of the flipcards were crushed inwards and away from a good camera angle to view them properly. --Gojiita 02:32, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
Do we have an explanation for these glyphs like we do for the previous ones?
Hmmm. Having just looked at the image of the crushed flipcards, I have to agree with the first comment that they are different glyphs. The middle glyph (third from left) has changed to the vulture/buzzard, and the glyph immediately to the right of it has changed to what seems to be a feather. Comparison based on these three images:
- Desmond's First System Failure
- Hieroglyphs from Lost season 2, episode 23
- The countdown timer when it was destroyed during the system failure in the Swan.
-- BlahDeBlahblah 05:04, 14 June 2006 (PDT)
Looks to me like the first stays the same, the bottom half of the second is changed, the third is changed (note that top is the same as second), The fourth bottom has changed and the fifth top changed (note top is same as fourth). -- nischwartz 09:50, 22 June 2006 (PDT)
It's difficult to catch, but if you watch the timer in the process of being crushed (which lasts about half a second), you'll see some of the flipcards turning. It's probably just since the timer is getting crumpled up, the fine clockwork parts that control which card is displayed are now out of alignment. It *could* be that the new symbols are intended to mean something, but I think it may be more likely that the producers just wanted to convey "The timer's broken beyond all repair, and is displaying gibberish". --Shodan1138 10:28, 22 June 2006 (PDT)
Fairplay, I concede Shodan! -- BlahDeBlahblah 16:04, 23 June 2006 (PDT)
Here are the screenshots from Desmond's first system failure:
--Kemot from Poland 06:05, 2 April 2008 (PDT)
Picking Nits
One of the links on the page: [1], linked by the word "determinative," is curiously misleading or at least oversimplified. First it says that it will get down to basics but instead gives a history of hieroglyphs--not getting down to it directly at all. Then it gives the following erroneous history, to which I have added my own comments in brackets. I'm being picky, I know.
“… In 1799, a soldier digging a fort in Rosetta, Egypt found a large black stone with three different types of writing on it. The writing was a message about Ptolemy V, who was ruling Egypt at the time. [At what time? Not 1799 for sure. Ptolemy V ruled about 200 B.C.] Because the message was written during the time when the Greeks ruled Egypt, one of the three languages was Greek. The other two were demotic and hieroglyphic....
“Finally, in 1822, a French Egyptologist named Jean François Champollion figured out how to decipher hieroglyphic writing. He realized that the hieroglyphs that spelled "Ptolemy" were enclosed in a cartouche [Actually three people before him put this and related insights together: Francois Antoine-Isaac Silvestre deSacy, Johann Akerblad, and Thomas Young. Champollion did confirm their discoveries.], so he was able to match it up to the Greek spelling. This discovery enabled him to equate the unfamiliar hieroglyphs with familiar Greek words and to translate the entire message. [Actually, What helped was that Champollion had a better knowledge of Coptic than Akerblad (deSacy and Young evidently had little or no knowledge of Coptic) and this made it easier for Champollion to recognize Coptic (Egyptian) words phonetically spelled by the hieroglyphs.]”
Not sure where to put this corrective notice. if anyone can think of a better place to move this. let me know. mnfowler
Does order mater?
If you number the symbols from left to right 1 to 5, the order they appear in is 4,3,5,1,2. Is this the order that the symbols should be read in or is it right to left as directed by the bird. Also if the bird is in the middle of the sequence, should the translation truncate the last Hieroglyph?
Budge and Translations
The portion on Alternative Translations makes a reference to the works of Dr. Budge. My understanding of Egyptian and heiroglyphics is that Budge's works were wildly inaccurate and aren't even close to reliable.
Wikipedia has the following to say:
- Budge seems to have felt that he had something to prove to his contemporaries, for he published works at an alarming rate, often sacrificing attention to detail to quantity of publications, and though his books are widely available to the public, his work is widely considered today as unreliable, and usually misleading.
--Doc 20:58, 12 September 2006 (PDT)
Rewrite
The section labelled Alternative Translations is written more in the form of a discussion (lots of "I"s, mixed in theories, and conjectures). Should this be rewritten, moved to the discussion page, or just removed? --Doc 10:26, 16 October 2006 (PDT)
Lotus Notes
KcnovA23 posted in the theories that the heiroglyphs were the same ones used by Lotus Notes (v5.0) when a password is entered. This isn't true (at least not for v5.06). A couple of the heiroglyphs are there, but others aren't, and there are many in Notes that weren't on the timer.
If KcnovA23 disagrees, and can post a screencap to support his assertion for a different version of Notes, then I'll happily eat my words. However, I can post screencaps of the heiroglyphs from v5.06 which disprove his theory. --Doc 13:53, 16 October 2006 (PDT)
Hieroglyphs Are Stations
The Hieroglyphs are shown on the Countdown Timer to reflect the lack of energy in other 5 stations. While Dharma members may study hieroglyphics, the Swan Station occupants may not, and thus can't read them. Here you can see what they mean using the DHARMA logos.
The Swan is the Charging Station. It makes electricity during 108 minutes and transports it to the other ones in several parts which are defined by entering The Numbers.
1. Station 6. The Door (or The Rock). Takes 42/108 of power supply. Reason unknown.
2. Station 5. The Pearl. Psychological Research. Takes 23/108 of power due to Remote Viewing system.
3. Station 4. The Staff. Medical Research. Takes 23/108 of power. The Hieroglyph is turned upside down.
4. Station 2. The Hydra. Zoological Research. Takes 8/108 of power. The Hydra Logo was changed to make the symbols more Egyptian.
5. Station 1. The Arrow. Store Station. Takes only 4/108 of power.
Nikoro 06:14, 28 October 2006 (PDT)
Article Rewrite
I am currently in the process of rewriting the whole article, not just the "Alternative Translations" section, taking into consideration any notes on this talk page that I am able to validate, using credible resources on Hieroglyphs. Thus, I would appreciate every valid input you can add here, to reflect on the article and support a better rewrite...
So, keep on posting :) -- 06:29, 30 October 2006 (PST)
- Note in my posting above that Budge is not a credible resource. There's a lot of bogus information out there on Heiroglyphics, and it's hard to tell where the show's writers got their info. In general, I'd take the word of the writers/producers/etc over any other source on what the Heiroglyphics mean. --Doc 09:22, 30 October 2006 (PST)
- After reviewing, I totally agree with you on the possible bogus nature of many resources used in analysis this article's topic in particular. That was actually why I felt it requires rather a collective rework, rather than a rewrite of the Alternative Translation section. I specially intend to give more emphesis to the writers' official transaltion of the symbols to "Underworld", which actually provides lots of clues and relations to other themes on Lost, that I was amazed it was not inspected more. Meanwhile, I appreciate your poste, and other that guide me even further in debunking noncredible sources. Thanks-- 09:51, 30 October 2006 (PST)
I just did a big rewrite of the article. The main issues were:
- Lot's of info just describing the Countdown Timer and how it works, which should be merged with that page. For now, I've moved those sections to Countdown Timer Hieroglyphs.
- Consolidated all the hieroglyph translation information which is known as fact
- Moved all the translation speculation into the Theories section
Charlie/Claire foreshadowing?
The alternate translation of the hieroglyphs is "She/Rises to the sky/in Flames//He/Dies". In the February 14th episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes", Desmond warns Charlie that he is destined to die. Now, back to the countdown timer. There are two background colors according to the article. Black represents female, and red represents male. The red porion of the hieroglyphs simply reads "He dies", which may be a in relation to Charlie. If this is true, then Claire is the woman who "Rises to the sky in flames", possibly indicating that she wil also die, and perhaps in a fire. This could also mean that Claire dies in The Flame Station. A third explanation would be that she is blasted sky high in an explosion, or even possibly air-lifted off of the island after being burned.
True meaning of underworld
Lindelof gave the translation, underworld, and Anthony Cooper theorized that the island was actually Hell. Is there any real connection, or is this just coincidence?
--Van Tiki 21:29, 7 May 2007 (PDT)
New Theory
- I know that it has been awhile since the episode aired, but I just was worried that Lost
was lost, so I went on-line and discovered this website. My interpetation is somewhat different than those stated here. First of all I believe that each character is a word or phrase in itself. (Egyptian hieroglyphs are often combined to form one word.) The casing shows that each symbol is seperated from the other, and that the rightmost two charaters are seperated from the others even more.
So there are two different statements. The Egyptian hieroglyphs are typically read right to left, so lets begin with the characters with the red background they are: the Eqyptian vulture (eagle) "Aleph" which by itself means "3" or triple, the walking stick symbolizes death or to die. So, either it means "triple death" or "to die three times." The other portion's glyphs from right to left are the fire drill "wedja" or "wechah" which stands for prosperity (well-being, power), the next is the spiral or quail chick and its meanings are return, revolve, or circle around, and finally the bolt of cloth, which by itself, means health. Therefore the second part could mean any of the following statements: "Prosperity revolves around health.", "Power surrounds health.", "Power returns health.", or even "Prosperity circles around health."
I don't believe that the definition is "Netherworld" because the ancient Egyptians believed in an Afterworld -- the whole reason for preserving the body by mummification. They also believed that there are 5 parts to each person: the "Ka" (soul), which is the essential element, the "Ba" (personality) that which makes each of us an individual, the "Ank" (life) the force that keeps the heart beating and the lungs breathing, the "Ren" (name) that which we are called or known by influences who we are, and finally the "Shewt" (the shadow) which the Egyptians believed was an entity that lies within each of us that has some mystical power. I mention this because it ties in with other mysteries: Ren: how many people on the island have been known by another name? Shewt: is the smoke monster a compilation of some part of the people on the island?
I, by no means, consider myself any authority on the subject. I have been interested in ancient cultures since my early teens, and that has been more than 25 years ago. But my question is: Why would the designers of this device use Egyptian hieroglyphs to state "Netherworld", when they could have used many other ancient languages of peoples who had a netherworld in their vocabulary. The Egyptians believed they would enter back into this world, defeating death.
--NotAgain 21:10, 10 October 2007 (PDT)
She Rises / He Dies
Where did this come from? It sounds like total bunk, especially with the "Some experts" lead in. If no reliable source is available for this then it should be removed as fan fluff. --Doc 13:55, 26 November 2007 (PST)
I'm a french contributor of Lostpedia and I study Egyptology in university. This translation is impossible for some reasons. The sign for tell he isn't the sign G1, it's impossible read the sign Z7 : Rises to the sky.
An other little mistake. The sign Z6 isn't a stick. It's an hieratic form of the sign A14 : "Man lie on one's side with blood flowing of his head".
My source is : P. GRANDET and B. MATHIEU, Cours d'Egyptien Hiéroglyphique, third edition, Paris 2003 (ISBN 2-9504368-2-X)
I'm sorry for my English. I do Egytian studies, not English so...--Vivere.memento 18:08, 19 February 2008 (PST)
- This material was added by one person without discussion a very long time ago. I searced for references to this alternative translation and found none. So I have removed it. Dharmatel4 18:58, 19 February 2008 (PST)
Faulkner translation
I noticed that a picture is given showing Faulkner's translation of the hieroglyphs, but for the life of me I can't figure out what he translated it to. --Thenumbersdude 20:02, 25 April 2008 (PDT)
