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Lostpedia:Archived Debates/May 18, 2008
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Lostpedia Debate League - Event no. 2 ------------------------------------------------ TOPIC: Who is the better leader: Jack or Locke? HOSTED BY: Lemonade JUDGES: KittyLili, TokyoRose, BauerUK, Smiley, LP Members DATE: Sunday 18th May 2008 TIME: 1900HRS BST(GMT+1) London VENUE: #lostpedia at irc.gamesurge.net POPULATION: Avg. 70 people ------------------------------------------------ What follows is a log of the entire event in verbatim. ------------------------------------------------
Introduction
<@Lemonade> THE OFFICIAL LOSTPEDIA DEBATE LEAGUE 2008 (WEEK TWO) IS ABOUT TO BEGIN. <@Lemonade> Hello fellow Losties. <@Lemonade> Coming to you live, from lostpedia at GameSurge, this is Event 2 of the official lostpedia debate league. <@Lemonade> I will be your host this afternoon/evening. <@Lemonade> The channel will be moderated during the debate, which means only the judges, mods, and the team members will be able to speak. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> The spotlight this afternoon is on arguably two of Lost's most extreme characters. <@Lemonade> One -- a man of science, the other -- a man of faith. Who makes a better leader? <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> "If we can't live together, we're going to die alone." -- Dr. Jack Shephard. <@Lemonade> Or... <@Lemonade> "If you wanna live, you need to come with me." -- John Locke. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> If you are participating in the debate today, it is time to pull out the big guns! <@Lemonade> The rest of us -- let's sit back, relax, and enjoy the event! :-) <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> On stage with me, this afternoon, are the four participants. <@Lemonade> Speaking "for Jack" is Team A. (A1-alwayslost01 and A2-packerswes4.) <@Lemonade> Speaking "for Locke" is Team B. (B1-TMBTC and B2-dragsol3.) <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Before we begin, a quick reminder to our audience: you can pose your viewer questions at any time by sending a private message to KittyLili, either here (by double clicking on her nickname), or on the lostpedia forums. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> If you are new to the Lostpedia debate format, please click here for details: http://forum.lostpedia.com/showpost.php?p=703596&postcount=3 <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Today's debate will be divided into the following five rounds: 1) The Lists, 2) Team Discussion, 3) Counter Arguments, 4) Q&A, and 5) Closing Statements. <@Lemonade> I will briefly describe the purpose of each round as the debate progresses. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> For the convenience of our audience, I request both teams to take their time, type out their thoughts clearly, and to use their team colors while presenting their arguments. 4[Team Jack = red, Team Locke = blue.] <@Lemonade> All team members should note that they will be able to speak only when they are voiced (i.e. have a + next to their nicknames.) <@Lemonade> Time limits will be strictly enforced, and the timer will start counting down as soon as you get voiced (+). <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> At this point I will be voicing all team members for 2 minutes. <@Lemonade> Team members, if you have want any clarification about the debate format, or have any other technical questions regarding the chat, please ask them now. <+A2-packerswes4> I think I'm good, assuming I can be seen <+B1-TMBTC> me too <+A1-alwayslost01> same <+B2-dragsol3> im good <@Lemonade> Thank you. <@Lemonade> Good luck to both teams. <@Lemonade> Here we go...
Round One: The Lists
<@Lemonade> ROUND ONE: THE LISTS <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> "You're not on the list because you are flawed..." -- Mikhail Bakunin. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> We begin with the first round -- The Lists. <@Lemonade> Both team leaders will have 2 minutes to present a list of FIVE salient points in support of their argument. <@Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+A1-alwayslost01> 1) Jack saved at least 6 of the survivors <+A1-alwayslost01> 2) He assumed leadership directly after the crash when no one else would <+A1-alwayslost01> 3) He always does what is best for everyone else <+A1-alwayslost01> 4) He thinks his plans through, never acts rashly and trusts his own judgment <+A1-alwayslost01> 5) He acts selflessly no matter what the situation <@Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost01. <@Lemonade> B1-TMBTC, your time starts... <+B1-TMBTC> hello fellow lostaddicts:) <+B1-TMBTC> 1) jack was not meant to lead <+B1-TMBTC> 2) jack is obstinate <+B1-TMBTC> 3) jack acts on emotion while locke does not <+B1-TMBTC> 4) locke has the needed skills for survival <+B1-TMBTC> 5) locke was chose by the island <+B1-TMBTC> thank you <@Lemonade> Thank you B1-TMBTC.
Round Two: Team Discussion
<@Lemonade> ROUND TWO: TEAM DISCUSSION <@Lemonade> Now that both teams have laid their cards on the table, it is time to get into the nitty gritty details. <@Lemonade> In this round, both teams will elaborate on their lists, providing specific examples to backup their claims. <@Lemonade> Teams will be voiced in their entirety -- one team at a time -- for a duration of 5 minutes. <@Lemonade> Discussions will be followed by a short pause, to allow team members and our audience to assimilate the information. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> We begin with team Jack. <@Lemonade> Team Jack, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+A1-alwayslost01> We all know from the Oceanic 6 Flash-Forwards that at least 6 people made it off of the island because of Jack's actions <+A2-packerswes4> And Jack has made sacrifices himself to do so <+A1-alwayslost01> After having his appendix removed he still went through the jungle in the intrest of saving more people <+A2-packerswes4> Jack became the de facto leader, even if he didnt really want it <+A1-alwayslost01> When everyone around him was screaming for help, he was the only person to answer their calls and help them <+A2-packerswes4> He pulled Claire out of harm's way <+A2-packerswes4> He revived Rose <+A2-packerswes4> He was the one who realized that "every man for himself is not gonna work" <+A1-alwayslost01> He was quick to point out that unless they lived together, they would all die alone <+A2-packerswes4> He went on almost every "jungle mission" there were <+A2-packerswes4> leading most of the time <+A1-alwayslost01> He was fearless of what dangers there may have been ahead because he was acting in the intrests of everyone else <+A2-packerswes4> his 1 goal was always rescue and he lived up to his promise <@Lemonade> You have 1 minute left. <+A1-alwayslost01> He made a promise and he has done everything in his power to stick to that promise <+A2-packerswes4> and he returned 5 of the survivors (not counting aaron) to civilization <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> We will be skipping the "clarification" section this week since we felt it was too chaotic (2 minutes per team) and, for the most part, unnecessary. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> We move on to Team Locke. <@Lemonade> Team Locke, you have 5 minutes to elaborate on your list. <@Lemonade> Your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> ladies and gentlemen, we know that the island wants what's best for the losties. so far we have seen jack leading the losties, but as of late he became sick. <+B1-TMBTC> most importantly however, his FF shows us that jack needs to go back to the island, thus he hasnt found his purpose yet <+B1-TMBTC> this implies his purpose was NOT to lead <+B1-TMBTC> also, jack pursues leadership. he is stubborn to his opinion and always wants the final say <+B1-TMBTC> jack leads for the sake of leading <+B1-TMBTC> when charlie and claire were taken, he insisted to track them,, even though he has no clue at tracking <+B1-TMBTC> he refused to listen to locke who is an expert in the matter <+B1-TMBTC> jack made ethan want to kill charlie <+B1-TMBTC> of course charlie did not die since the island still needed him <+B1-TMBTC> jack is emotional (jackface) <+B1-TMBTC> this bring the worst in him (jackface again) <+B1-TMBTC> he doesn't see everyone as equals <+B1-TMBTC> and does not weigh their opinion <+B1-TMBTC> unless it's kate <+B1-TMBTC> jack falls for kateisms and he is more flexible towards her <+B1-TMBTC> or anyone who kate wants to help <+B1-TMBTC> locke on the other hand has no romantic obstacles <+B1-TMBTC> thus he is more fair <+B2-dragsol3> it seems he also changes his oppinion on several ocations when kate is involved <+B1-TMBTC> we saw in othersville that he didn't help kate with her secret agenda <+B2-dragsol3> making the plan less affective <+B1-TMBTC> something that jack would do! <+B1-TMBTC> locke has hunting and tracking skills <@Lemonade> You have 1 minute left. <+B1-TMBTC> he can provide food <+B1-TMBTC> a doctor is not useful <+B1-TMBTC> as the island will kill anyone if it sees fit <+B1-TMBTC> healing is irrelevant <+B1-TMBTC> it is just stalling and not preventing <+B2-dragsol3> look at Boone <+B2-dragsol3> jack tried to heal him <+B2-dragsol3> but he died anyway <+B1-TMBTC> we know the island has good intentions for the losties. and we know locke almost killed himself <+B1-TMBTC> the island did not let him <+B2-dragsol3> jack was foolish enought to trya nd ciut off his leg <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke. <@Lemonade>
Round Three: Counter Arguments
<@Lemonade> ROUND THREE: COUNTER ARGUMENTS <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> "I don't know how to help them. I'll fail. I don't have what it takes. I'm not a leader." -- Dr. Jack Shephard. <@Lemonade> "I'm on my own journey now." -- John Locke. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> At the heart of any debate lies the ability to find loopholes in the opponents arguments. <@Lemonade> Both teams get a chance to do so in this round. <@Lemonade> They will have 5 minutes each. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> We begin with team Jack. <@Lemonade> Team Jack, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+A1-alwayslost01> You say that Jack is just leading, all Locke is doing is finding his own path, regardless of everyone else <+A2-packerswes4> It seemed like you were more attacking Jack than supporting locke <+A2-packerswes4> We arent arguing who is supposed to be the leader <+A2-packerswes4> But rather who is actually the better leader <+A1-alwayslost01> yes, I wouldn't mind seeing your points to why Locke is the better leader rather than why Jack isn't very good <+A2-packerswes4> You said that a doctor is useless? How do you figure that? <+A2-packerswes4> How many people have gotten sick or injured that Jack has helped? <+A2-packerswes4> And the island has other sources of food than just Locke hunting <+A2-packerswes4> Jin fishes <+A2-packerswes4> Kate picks fruit <+A2-packerswes4> Sun grows veggies <+A2-packerswes4> Jack is far more important to the Losties survival than Locke <+A2-packerswes4> If Locke was such a good leader then why did his followers abandon him? <+A1-alwayslost01> Also, you say the healing is irrelivant, without that healing your leader would still be in a weelchair <+A2-packerswes4> As of late everyone who went with locke had either gotten killed or left him <+A2-packerswes4> Except Hurley, who was "special" <+A1-alwayslost01> Hurley was pratically forced into staying with him anyway <+A2-packerswes4> He was going to go with Sawyer, Miles, and Claire <+A1-alwayslost01> Ben said so himself, Locke is becoming a manipulater <+A2-packerswes4> Locke cant make his own decisions <+A1-alwayslost01> He uses Jacob <+A2-packerswes4> He relies on Ben and Jacob too much to be a true leader <+A1-alwayslost01> Locke is a murderer aswell <+A1-alwayslost01> and responsable for the death of Boone <@Lemonade> You have 1 minute left. <+A2-packerswes4> Who Jack tried to save. <+A1-alwayslost01> he claimed Boone was a 'sacrifce' <+A1-alwayslost01> but why would he have to die? <+A1-alwayslost01> he didn't have to go up into that plane <+A1-alwayslost01> but John made him <+A1-alwayslost01> John manipulated him <+A1-alwayslost01> he then lied to Jack about what happened <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Next up, team Locke. <@Lemonade> Team Locke, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> you say jack was the leader from start <+B1-TMBTC> no <+B1-TMBTC> everyone helped eachother <+B1-TMBTC> locke is the one who told jack to figure his stuff out and then lead <+B1-TMBTC> jack is driven you say <+B1-TMBTC> this makes him want to achieve his goal so bad <+B1-TMBTC> that he loses touch with the primary goal <+B1-TMBTC> and the goal becomes just to achieve a goal <+B1-TMBTC> he loses other paths that are better <+B1-TMBTC> as we have seen.. the freighter was a really bad choice <+B1-TMBTC> six survivors out of who knows how many <@polarbear> *whom <+B1-TMBTC> we also don't know if jack made the deal <+B1-TMBTC> plus sun wasn't satisfied at all <+B1-TMBTC> and their lives are miserable <+B2-dragsol3> jack argogance to get off the isalnd has blinded him from the true goal of protecting the people <+B1-TMBTC> yes <+B1-TMBTC> while locke knows that the island is where salvation is <+B1-TMBTC> jack saved 6 who he cares about <+B1-TMBTC> what about the rest of them? <+B2-dragsol3> we have to remeber that the island has a much righer purpose and only locke seems connected with that goal <+B2-dragsol3> jacks only goal is to get off the island <+B1-TMBTC> and this goal has blinded him <+B2-dragsol3> yet after that is complete he wants to coem back <+B1-TMBTC> he doesnt care about survival anymore <+B1-TMBTC> the island made him sick <+B2-dragsol3> that shows his entire purpose that he set for hmself has been for nothing <+B1-TMBTC> the island is trying to tell him.. you're doing it wrong <+B1-TMBTC> also <+B1-TMBTC> when kate went with locke and michael for hunting boar <+B1-TMBTC> kate had a scratch <+B1-TMBTC> michael had a gory locke <+B1-TMBTC> why did jack run to kate and not michael? <+B1-TMBTC> what's up with that? <@Lemonade> You have 1 minute left. <+B1-TMBTC> locke was the one who made people realise there are others on the island <+B1-TMBTC> jack was in denial <+B1-TMBTC> along with every one else <+B1-TMBTC> this is not leading <+B1-TMBTC> locke led people in othersville <+B2-dragsol3> just like jack was in denial aboutt he frieghter <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke.
Short Break
<@Lemonade> TIME FOR A SHORT BREAK <@Lemonade> "We need some kind of relief, you know. We need some way that we can, you know, have fun. That's right, fun. Or else we're just going to go crazy waiting for the next bad thing to happen." -- Hugo "Hurley" Reyes. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Dear fellow Losties, thank you for your patience so far. <@Lemonade> We have two very strong teams this evening, and things are getting intense. <@Lemonade> We will take a very very short 10 minute break. <@Lemonade> So sit back, pop open a Dharma beer, and eagerly await our return. :-) <@Lemonade> I am sure you have plenty of questions you wish to ask both teams, so please keep sending them via PM to KittyLili. <@Lemonade> Don't change the channel, because coming up after the break is the most exciting round of this debate! <@polarbear> Kadaj you're my rock. I mean if you quit the next thing you know bees will stop making honey, and flowers will die, and hell, the whole damn thing will fall apart. <@Lemonade> lol <@ChanServ> [Kadaj] WE HAVE TO GO BACK! <@dp> I would like to remind everyone that this channel will be going to SPOILCON 1 shortly after the debate, as the spoilers for Part 2 & 3 are going to be released soon on DarkUFO. <@BauerUK> What is spoilcon? Read here: http://en.lostpedia.com/wiki/User:MacCutcheon/Spoilcon_1 <@dp> You will only be able if voiced, please read http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/User:MacCutcheon/Spoilcon_1 how to get voiced. <@Lemonade> Thank you dp.
Round Four: Q&A
<@Lemonade> Welcome back Losties. :-) <@Lemonade> ROUND FOUR: Q&A <@Lemonade> We now begin the most exciting round of this debate -- Q&A! <@Lemonade> We will wait for a couple of minutes to see if A1-alwayslost01 returns. <@Lemonade> JavaUser0, please type /nick A1-alwayslost01 <@Lemonade> JavaUser0, please type /nick A1-alwayslost01 <A1-alwayslost> thank you :D <@Lemonade> We apologize for the inconvenience. <@Lemonade> So here we go again... <@Lemonade> Both teams will now answer questions submitted by you. <@Lemonade> And by our judges. <@Lemonade> The questions will be posed in verbatim, and it is up to the teams to interpret them. <@Lemonade> The judges have selected 7 questions (3 general questions, and 2 questions specific for each team.) <@Lemonade> Question 1 (General question 1 of 3) <@Lemonade> We begin with a question for both teams. <@Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously, allowing them to interact with each other for the first time. <@Lemonade> This question was asked by Smiley. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Neither Jack nor Locke have not had a huge amount of success in handling the Freigher issue. Discuss. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Teams Jack and Locke, you have 5 minutes. <+A1-alwayslost> Sorry for going offline there everyone, I apologise. <+B1-TMBTC> locke is in the right path <+B1-TMBTC> as he knows they are a threat <+A2-packerswes4> Well, not all the freighter people are bad <+A2-packerswes4> The 4 that we know the most about seem to be mostly good <+B1-TMBTC> most of them are <+B2-dragsol3> the ones in power are bad <+A2-packerswes4> It's just keamy and his peons that are bad <+B2-dragsol3> the ones witht he guns lol <+B1-TMBTC> the ones that matter are bad <+B2-dragsol3> right <+B1-TMBTC> and locke tries to confront them <+B2-dragsol3> jack wants to run <+B1-TMBTC> jack trusts them blindly <+B1-TMBTC> just because HE says so <+A2-packerswes4> Jack did get people back home via the freighter, unlike Locke <+B1-TMBTC> not penny's boat was not enough <+A2-packerswes4> at least not that we know of <+B1-TMBTC> charlie's dead was not enough <+B1-TMBTC> death <+A1-alwayslost> if it were up to Locke everyone would be dead by now, he wanted to hide in the barracks, we saw what happened there <+B2-dragsol3> he got hem back but they all want to get back to the island <+B1-TMBTC> he did hide in the barracks <+B1-TMBTC> they're still alive <+B2-dragsol3> its better then being exposed ont he beach <+B1-TMBTC> jack is moving towards death <+B1-TMBTC> and misery <+B2-dragsol3> imagine what would ahve happened if they were on the ebach <+A2-packerswes4> Jack isnt afraid of the frieghter <+B1-TMBTC> jack is in denial <+B2-dragsol3> yes he is <+B1-TMBTC> of the freighter <+B1-TMBTC> because HE believes it's ok <+B1-TMBTC> so it must be ok <+B1-TMBTC> well it's not like that <+A2-packerswes4> How is Jack afraid? <+A2-packerswes4> He knows it's the best way off <+B1-TMBTC> jack is in denial <+A2-packerswes4> And he got some of them off <+B2-dragsol3> wait to see the next episode, he runs away formt he isalnd when things get too tough <+B1-TMBTC> he doesn't know <+B1-TMBTC> he thinks it's the best way off <+A1-alwayslost> at least Jack saves 6 people, so far all Locke has done is kill people <+A2-packerswes4> yep <+B1-TMBTC> yeah well <+B1-TMBTC> if it werent for jack <+B1-TMBTC> no freighter <+B1-TMBTC> so no death <+B2-dragsol3> loche stay behind to keep safe all those who dont get off on the frieghter <+A2-packerswes4> no rescue <+A2-packerswes4> no ji yeon <+A1-alwayslost> they'd all still be stuck on mystery island! <+A2-packerswes4> no normal life for aaron <+B1-TMBTC> better than misery land <+A2-packerswes4> sun would have died <+B2-dragsol3> why is gettign off the the isalnd so good <+B1-TMBTC> jin died for all we know <+B2-dragsol3> many of the people seem happier on the island then off it <+A1-alwayslost> why is the island so good? <+B1-TMBTC> jack has lost his way with the freighter <+B1-TMBTC> locke found his <@Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <+B1-TMBTC> it's that simple <+B2-dragsol3> look at its healing qualities <+B1-TMBTC> jack got sick because of his decisions <+B2-dragsol3> right <+A2-packerswes4> if everyone wanted to stay on the island then why'd they all abandon locke? <+B1-TMBTC> while locke got healed <+B1-TMBTC> so jack is wrong <+B1-TMBTC> locke is right <+A2-packerswes4> who says the island made jack sick? <+B1-TMBTC> because they don't think ahead <+A2-packerswes4> he just had appenecitis <+A1-alwayslost> Locke didn't want everyone to stay for the sake of the losties, he wanted to stay for his own benefit <+B1-TMBTC> yeah right <+B1-TMBTC> :D <+B2-dragsol3> your very blind here <+B1-TMBTC> no he didnt <@Lemonade> Thank you teams Jack and Locke. <@Lemonade> I would have loved to hear more on this issue, but we have time restrictions. <@Lemonade> Question 2 (Team A question 1 of 2) <@Lemonade> The second question is directed at team Jack, and was asked by stlgirl. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Since you are arguing that jack is a good doctor, how does jack being a good doctor make him a good leader? <@Lemonade> Since you are arguing that jack is a good doctor, how does jack being a good doctor make him a good leader? <@Lemonade> Oops. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Team Jack, you have 4 minutes to answer the question. <@Lemonade> And your time starts... <+A1-alwayslost> Because when things go wrong (because of Locke usually) he is there to fix them <@Lemonade> Now <+A1-alwayslost> and jack is a fixer <+A2-packerswes4> a doctor has to have good leader skills <+A2-packerswes4> especially a surgeon <+A2-packerswes4> who directs other people during surgery <+A1-alwayslost> he is educated, he knows what he is doing thanks to been a surgeon which helps him have quick thinking <+A2-packerswes4> You have to make on the job decisions as a doctor <+A2-packerswes4> Maybe a better question is how does being a box man make Locke a better leader? <+A1-alwayslost> he worked everyday in make-or-brake situations which requires quick and clear thinking <+A2-packerswes4> Who do you want? A doctor or a box maker? <+A2-packerswes4> Jack's skills make him more well equipped to be a leader <+A1-alwayslost> Everyone on the island looks up to him <+A1-alwayslost> and respect him <+A2-packerswes4> Even Locke <@Lemonade> 1 minute left <+A2-packerswes4> He called Jack the leader back in S1 <+A1-alwayslost> they know if they will ever find their salvation, it will be through Jack <+A2-packerswes4> testing <+A2-packerswes4> ok, i'm good <+A2-packerswes4> sorry <+A1-alwayslost> and Jack earnt that respect through his actions in the aftermath of the plane crash <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Team Locke has 1 minute to counter. <@Lemonade> Team Locke, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> what wes said about locke and box making is irrelevant and should be posted at the closing in my opinion <+B1-TMBTC> jack's doc skills don't matter as healing someone on the island is irrelevant.. it's just stalling <+B1-TMBTC> a doctor thinks quickly <+B1-TMBTC> this doesn't mean it's the best choice <+B2-dragsol3> frankly it seems you guys are missing the point of what it means to be a good leader <+B1-TMBTC> especially in the long run <+B2-dragsol3> being a surgon doesnt mean you are a good leader <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke. <@Lemonade> Question 3 (Team B question 1 of 2) <@Lemonade> The next question is directed at team Locke, and was asked by bit. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> you keep referring to the island as a way to measure whether someone has taken the right path. what proof do you have that the island's path is the correct path to take? <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Team Locke, you have 4 minutes to answer the question. <@Lemonade> And your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> because the island is the show <+B1-TMBTC> the island has good intentions for the losties <+B1-TMBTC> as it gives them true purpose <+B2-dragsol3> i dont think anyone can argue that the island isnt special in some way <+B1-TMBTC> the right path is what you need to do <+B2-dragsol3> its healing qualities and the fact thate veryone wants it is proof it has apurpose <+B1-TMBTC> we all know that healing or getting people sick is the measurement to that <+B2-dragsol3> the island is a tool that cna be used in agood way or a bad way <+B1-TMBTC> locke lost his faith, he couldn't walk <+B1-TMBTC> locke understands the island's purpose <+B2-dragsol3> the others have had control of the isalnd for God knows how long and the world is still running so they must be doing soemhtign right <+B1-TMBTC> we also know that jack went against the island's will and it made him miserable <+B2-dragsol3> exactly <+B2-dragsol3> locke follows the path and he is healed on several occations <+B1-TMBTC> the island is a utopia <+B1-TMBTC> realising it is a good start for the right path and salvation <@Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <+B2-dragsol3> fath vs. science is a main topic for the show and it seems faith is winning <+B1-TMBTC> we all know they were brought there for a reason <+B1-TMBTC> sciene is losing <+B1-TMBTC> look at dharma <+B1-TMBTC> destiny brought them.. the island is destiny <+B1-TMBTC> destiny is what you need to do <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke. <@Lemonade> Team Jack has 1 minute to counter. <@Lemonade> Team Jack, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now <+A1-alwayslost> if the island has 'good intentions' for the losties, why did so many die in the crash and why have so many died since? <+A1-alwayslost> Locke still doesn't understand the island either, if he did he wouldn't need Ben/Jacob/Horace <+A2-packerswes4> I dont think one can provide that kind of proof <@katesblackhorse> Hey, hey, don't you walk away from me danhm . You don't know who you're dealing with! <+A1-alwayslost> instead he runs around following what he hopes is what the island wants him to do <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@katesblackhorse> Smiley you quit? You're messing with my worldview here. <@Lemonade> Question 4 (General question 2 of 3) <@Lemonade> Up next is a general question. <@Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously, allowing them to interact with each other. <@Lemonade> This question was asked by BauerUK. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> During the current (fourth) season, we have seen -- from the perspective of flash-forwards -- the outcomes of Jack's actions (ie. the Oceanic-Six getting off the island.) Whether either team regards this as a success, how does the fact that we have yet to really see the impact of John's decision to stay back weigh up to that teams argument? <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> I will give you guys a minute to read and understand the question. <@Lemonade> Teams Jack and Locke, you have 5 minutes to answer the question. <@Lemonade> And your time starts... <+A2-packerswes4> that's a good point, but we have to argue based on what we know. <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> indeed <+B2-dragsol3> i think it doesnt allow us to argue in the best wya we can but based on how misserable the people off the island are, it seem lily the bpeople on the isalnd are better off <+A1-alwayslost> but for all we know everyone else is dead <+B1-TMBTC> what we know we already talked about <+B1-TMBTC> no that is not true <+A2-packerswes4> I dont think the o6 are misearable <+B2-dragsol3> if they were dead they wouldnt be tryign to get back <+A2-packerswes4> Just Sayid <+B1-TMBTC> many implied that they are alive <+A2-packerswes4> And Hurley <+A1-alwayslost> Kate seemed pretty happy <+B2-dragsol3> and jack <+B1-TMBTC> sawyer decided to stay <+B1-TMBTC> kate won't be for long <+A2-packerswes4> We dont know why though <+B1-TMBTC> it doesn't matter why <+B1-TMBTC> it means they're alive <+A2-packerswes4> Aaron seems quite happy <+A1-alwayslost> there is no proof anyone is alive on the island at all <+B1-TMBTC> aaron doesn't know how to count <+B2-dragsol3> chalie said "tey need you" <+A2-packerswes4> He's 2! <+A2-packerswes4> Maybe younger <+B1-TMBTC> exactly <+A2-packerswes4> what difference does that make? <+B1-TMBTC> well he doesn't really have an opinion <+A1-alwayslost> you say everyones miserable, only Jack and Hurley want to go back, thats one third of the O6 <+B2-dragsol3> "they" can only mean the people still on the isalnd <+B1-TMBTC> we can deduce from the FFs that they are alive <+B1-TMBTC> they can't just die next episode <+B1-TMBTC> that would be lame <+B2-dragsol3> they will allw ant to go back Sied is working for Ben for Gods sake <+A1-alwayslost> theres 2 hours and this is Lost, they could make this show about handbags if they wanted <+B1-TMBTC> and it wouldn't be LOST anymore.. it would be LOS ANGELES or something <+B2-dragsol3> lol <+A2-packerswes4> LOST doesnt imply island <+B1-TMBTC> yeah but they won't <+B1-TMBTC> ok <+B2-dragsol3> they will stick witht he isalnd <+A2-packerswes4> it implies trying to find themselves <+B1-TMBTC> they moved the island <+B2-dragsol3> no dout in my mind <+A2-packerswes4> it's figurative <+B1-TMBTC> they are NOT dead <+B1-TMBTC> so Locke is doing fine <+B1-TMBTC> probably being leader <+B2-dragsol3> the isalnd is the center of the show <+B1-TMBTC> if you ask me <+A2-packerswes4> Probably not, but we cant make that assumption until we know <+A1-alwayslost> they are metaforically lost, Darlton said it themselves, it is not a reference to the island <+B1-TMBTC> well they lie all the time:p <+B2-dragsol3> it is impossible for them to take the isalnd out of the show <+B1-TMBTC> and it is all about the island <+A1-alwayslost> you lie all the time! <+B1-TMBTC> haha:D <+A2-packerswes4> eh <+B1-TMBTC> the FFs imply that they are alive <@Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <+B1-TMBTC> that's what we base arguments on <+A2-packerswes4> Bottom line is you have to argue based on what we know <+A1-alwayslost> from what we know, chances are they are alive on the island, but we really can't say that for certain <+A2-packerswes4> We know what happens to Jack and co. but not Locke <+B1-TMBTC> yes <+A2-packerswes4> That just gives Team Jack a slight advantage <+B2-dragsol3> but we also know the people off the island want to go back <+B1-TMBTC> no it doesnt <+A2-packerswes4> Not all of them. Just Jack and Hurley <+B1-TMBTC> jack is miserable in the FF:p <+B2-dragsol3> it shows jack made a bad choice <+A1-alwayslost> 2 out of 6 is less than half <+B2-dragsol3> to leave the isalnd <+B1-TMBTC> sun is not happy <+A1-alwayslost> less than half of the survivors want to go back <+B2-dragsol3> sied is miserable <+B1-TMBTC> hurley is not <@Lemonade> Thank you to both teams. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> I hate to turn your voices off when you are in the middle of the conversation, but I cannot break the rules. <@Lemonade> So moving on... <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Question 5 (Team B question 2 of 2) <@Lemonade> The next question is directed at team Locke, and was asked by Typhoony|. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> You say Jack was not meant to lead and that the island does not want him to lead. But in White Rabbit, we see that his father, or the spirit of his father, led him to the caves and fresh water. Also, in the mobisode "So it Begins", Christian is seen saying "Find my son. He has work to do". If the island didnt want Jack to be the leader, how do you explain those things? <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Take a minute to read and understand the question. <@Lemonade> Team Locke, you have 4 minutes to answer the question. <@Lemonade> And your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now <+B2-dragsol3> jack has a purpose on the island it just isnt being the leader <+B1-TMBTC> water and work to do does not imply being a leader <+B1-TMBTC> jack is not being a good leader <+B1-TMBTC> he still has work to be done <+B1-TMBTC> to do sorry <+B2-dragsol3> everyone onthe island has some purpose otherwise it would kill them <+B1-TMBTC> exactly <+B2-dragsol3> jack is important but he is not he leader <+B1-TMBTC> jack hasn't found it yet <+B2-dragsol3> otherwise he would be the one talking tot he island <+B1-TMBTC> and what has he been doing? <+B1-TMBTC> LEAD LEAD and LEAD <+B1-TMBTC> but still, he reaches out for the island and grabs thin air <+B1-TMBTC> ever since the white rabbit <+B1-TMBTC> the island does not want him to lead <+B2-dragsol3> dont get me wrong jack has a veyr important purpose but in the end he is not the leader that the island wants <+B1-TMBTC> exactly <+B1-TMBTC> he never was <+B1-TMBTC> he just WANTS to be <+B1-TMBTC> so he probably saw the signs differently <+B2-dragsol3> maybe locke isnt the true leader either but for now lockes choices are best <+B2-dragsol3> jack has lost his way <+B1-TMBTC> locke is win win <+B1-TMBTC> and season 4 is one big clue <+B1-TMBTC> that jack lost his way <+B2-dragsol3> right <@Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <+B1-TMBTC> so.. his dad's "work to do" is something else <+B2-dragsol3> or his work is complete <+B1-TMBTC> the water.. well they needed the water <+B1-TMBTC> locke made him go there <+B1-TMBTC> so i guess he LED jack there <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke. <@Lemonade> Team Jack has 1 minute to counter. <@Lemonade> Team Jack, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now <+A2-packerswes4> drag says the island kills those without purpose. It seems to me more like once they fulfill their purpose then they die. <+A2-packerswes4> Eko. Boone. They died after fulfilling their puprose <+A1-alwayslost> Yes, that was demonstarted with Charlie aswell <+A2-packerswes4> eh, purpose <+A1-alwayslost> Locke has lost his way numerous times <+A1-alwayslost> practically all of season 2 <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Question 6 (Team A question 2 of 2) <@Lemonade> The next question is directed at team Jack. <@Lemonade> Asked by me. :-) <@Lemonade> "Jack lets emotion and his obsession to fix things taint his judgement. This makes him a bad leader." How do you counter this argument? <@Lemonade> Pretty straightforward question, so let's start right away. <+A2-packerswes4> I would counter by saying that Locke is the same way. <+A1-alwayslost> Part of what makes him such a great leader is his emotions <+A2-packerswes4> He got all teary eyed about the stupid hatch <+A2-packerswes4> Locke, that is <+A1-alwayslost> Jacks emotions is what saves 6 people <+A1-alwayslost> whereas Locke only has the emotion of anger <+A2-packerswes4> In locke's flashback we see him agonizing over his con artist father <+A2-packerswes4> Dont tell me what I cant do! That isnt emotional? <+A2-packerswes4> Ever since Locke was a teenager it's been all about what he could or couldnt do <+A1-alwayslost> Jacks emotions also where what kicked in for the aftermath of the crash helping him save so many people <+A2-packerswes4> He wouldnt get so fired up about stuff like that or the walkabout if he wasnt emotional <+A2-packerswes4> i think all the characters are emotional to some extent <+A1-alwayslost> Locke just wanted to be a superhero, he said it nearly said it himself in Cabin Fever <+A1-alwayslost> it is unfair to only say Jack is emotional when Locke is the one who we've seen throwing temper tantrums when Ben has got to him etc. <+A2-packerswes4> Yep <@Lemonade> 1 minute left. <+A1-alwayslost> Also, if Jack wasn't emotional and was a lot more laid back <+A1-alwayslost> he may not have called the frieghter <+A2-packerswes4> which would have kept them ALL on the island <+A1-alwayslost> which brought rescue to 6 people <+A1-alwayslost> yep <+A2-packerswes4> which would have lead to Sun's death <+A1-alwayslost> it would have forsaken all of them to die alone on the island <+A1-alwayslost> Locke has murdered using his emotion, look at when he killed Naomi <@Lemonade> Thank you team Jack. <@Lemonade> Team Locke has 1 minute to counter. <@Lemonade> Team Locke, your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+B1-TMBTC> first of all.. jack was all about "don't tell me what I can't do" too and that's what made his obsession to fix things <+B1-TMBTC> jack beat ben up <+B1-TMBTC> and killed locke <+B1-TMBTC> yes killed <+B1-TMBTC> you know what I mean <+B1-TMBTC> with the gun <+B2-dragsol3> locke did not kill naomi based on his emotions, he did it becuase he new they were not who they said they were <+B1-TMBTC> he also falls for kate all the time <+B1-TMBTC> which is bad <+B2-dragsol3> right <+B1-TMBTC> he trusted juliet easily <+B1-TMBTC> while locke presented facts about abductions <+B1-TMBTC> and kidnapings <@Lemonade> Thank you team Locke. <@Lemonade> Question 7 (General question 3 of 3) <@Lemonade> Last question of the day! <@Lemonade> Wooo hooo \o/ <@Lemonade> Both teams will be voiced simultaneously, allowing them to interact with each other. <@Lemonade> This is your last chance to make an impression. <@Lemonade> So go full throttle. <@Lemonade> This question comes from BauerUK and he asks: <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> William S. Frank says that there are 10 core values that make good leadership. He says that a leader should be: 1) Visionary; 2) Inspirational; 3) Strategic; 4) Tactical; 5) Focused; 6) Persuasive; 7) Likeable; 8) Decisive; 9) Ethical, and; 10) Open to Feedback. Which of these qualities do you think that Jack/Locke possess/do not possess? <@Lemonade> Take a minute to gather your thoughts. <@Lemonade> Both teams will have 7 minutes to answer this final question. <@Lemonade> You have 1 more minute to think about the question. <@Lemonade> Remember this is your last chance to make an impression on the audience and the judges, so answer with care. :-) <@Lemonade> Ok <@Lemonade> Here we go. <@Lemonade> 7 minutes... <@Lemonade> And your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is literally all of them. You can hardly say Locke is ethic when we know he would be willing to murder everyone on that island so that he could get the answers he wants <+A2-packerswes4> Jack possesses inspiration, strategy, focus, persuasivness, likability, decisivness for sure, maybe the others as well <+B2-dragsol3> i think i can say with confidence that lock posses all but 7, but beign likable isant necceccarly the best thing for a leader <+B1-TMBTC> locke is open to feedback.. jack is definitely not <+B1-TMBTC> murdering all is extreme <+B2-dragsol3> locke is veyr ethical by the way <+A2-packerswes4> Inspirational is owned by Jack <+B1-TMBTC> locke helped charlie <+B2-dragsol3> he doesnt kill incoccents <+B1-TMBTC> claire <+A2-packerswes4> *gives inspirational speech* <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is, he takes it in consideration then does what is best for everyone <+B1-TMBTC> even paulo <+B1-TMBTC> and most importantly JACK <+A2-packerswes4> Jack is definitely focused <+B1-TMBTC> overfocused <+B1-TMBTC> so it's a bad thing <+A2-packerswes4> He knows the goal, and he takes the steps to obtain it <+B2-dragsol3> foucused o the wrong things <+A2-packerswes4> Who's to say what "overfocused" is? <+B1-TMBTC> yeah I already said my opinion about that <+B1-TMBTC> he loses his goal <+A1-alwayslost> how can you say that surviving and getting off the island is the wrong thing to be focused on? <+B1-TMBTC> i did not say that <+A2-packerswes4> it was implied <+B2-dragsol3> becuase we have seen that it is <+B1-TMBTC> but he is not focused there <+A1-alwayslost> whereas chasing after a jumping cabin is way more important? <+B1-TMBTC> he is focused on kate <+B2-dragsol3> it is <+B1-TMBTC> and getting off the island <+A2-packerswes4> who isnt focused on kate? :D <+A1-alwayslost> she's hot! what do you expect <+B2-dragsol3> the cabin, or the isalnd, is what is impotant <+B1-TMBTC> survival means nothing to him up to this point <+A2-packerswes4> I'm surprised Locke isnt focused on Kate <+B2-dragsol3> a leader is lead arounf by his short sword <+B2-dragsol3> that is abad leader <+B1-TMBTC> locke is strategic too <+B2-dragsol3> who makes a lot of mistakes <+A2-packerswes4> So is Jack <+B1-TMBTC> and tactical <+B2-dragsol3> jack is not <+B1-TMBTC> he has plan A and plan B <+A1-alwayslost> Locke only cares for himself and what he thinks is his destiny <+A2-packerswes4> He knew exactly what needed to be done to rescue them and did it <+B1-TMBTC> wrong <+B2-dragsol3> staying ont he ebach, out in the open is stupid <+B1-TMBTC> locke tries to make everyone realise that the island is everyone's destiny <+A2-packerswes4> Look what happened at the barracks! <+A1-alwayslost> Locke hid everyon in the barracks <+A2-packerswes4> The beach is so stupid <+A1-alwayslost> and they were massicured <+A2-packerswes4> Locke got blown up <+B2-dragsol3> imaging the same thing on the beach <+A1-alwayslost> why? it hasn't happened on the beach <+B1-TMBTC> locke is tactical and strategic <+B2-dragsol3> they would ahve all been slaughterd <+B1-TMBTC> he organised a team to go get jack <+B2-dragsol3> no survivors <+A1-alwayslost> and Keamy isn't anywhere near them <+A2-packerswes4> They were looking for Ben. <+B1-TMBTC> keamy? <+B1-TMBTC> ha <+B1-TMBTC> they were expecting them on the beach though <+A2-packerswes4> Locke took them to where the freighties would look for Ben. <+A2-packerswes4> That was real smart. <+B1-TMBTC> barracks was a wiser choice <+B2-dragsol3> keamy would have killed every single one of them <+A1-alwayslost> how was the barraks wiser? they got killed <+A1-alwayslost> beach people didn't <@Lemonade> 3 minutes to go. <+B1-TMBTC> who got killed? <+B2-dragsol3> he would ahve looked for ben and found him at the beach <+B1-TMBTC> redshirts? <+A2-packerswes4> redshirts <+B1-TMBTC> you dont care about redshirts apparently <+B1-TMBTC> seeing you only care about 6 people <+B2-dragsol3> the barraks had soem cover <+A2-packerswes4> theyr'e still survivors! <+A2-packerswes4> Locke got them killed. <+A1-alwayslost> well I don't see Locke caring about them <+B1-TMBTC> yeah well you're conflicting yourself there:p <+A2-packerswes4> And almost Sawyer <+A2-packerswes4> howso? <+B2-dragsol3> locke is trying to save the world while jack is trying to save himself and a few others <+A1-alwayslost> Claire was almost killed aswell <+B1-TMBTC> okay <+A1-alwayslost> how is Locke getting what he wants saving the world? <+A2-packerswes4> Save the world? I thought that was desmond. <+B1-TMBTC> where would they most reasonably go? the freighties I mean <+B2-dragsol3> no <+B2-dragsol3> the isalnd is saving the world <+A2-packerswes4> The barracks <+B1-TMBTC> miles had jack at gunpoint <+B2-dragsol3> and locke is saving the island <+A1-alwayslost> Locke is saving himself from the life he has led <+B1-TMBTC> the freighties according to the losties <+A2-packerswes4> Jack cares about people. Not a piece of land <+A1-alwayslost> no one else <+B1-TMBTC> would go to the beach <+B2-dragsol3> no he isnt <@Lemonade> 1 minute to go. <+B1-TMBTC> locke was trying to get away from them <+B2-dragsol3> locke has changed his ways since he came to the island <+B1-TMBTC> jack was trying to find them <+B1-TMBTC> so his motive was wrong <+B2-dragsol3> he is a good person who does what is neccessary <+B2-dragsol3> T ISLAND IS SAVIGN BILLIONS <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is the better leader, you've proved that yourselves <+B1-TMBTC> jack is decisive only for his opinion/decision <+B2-dragsol3> not is the slightest way <+A2-packerswes4> Jack owns locke <+B1-TMBTC> his bedmanner sucks <+B1-TMBTC> as hurley said <+A1-alwayslost> at least he has hair <+A2-packerswes4> Locke was abandoned by his followers, jack wasnt <@Lemonade> Thank you teams Jack and Locke. <@Lemonade>
Round Five: Closing Statements
<@Lemonade> ROUND FIVE: CLOSING STATEMENTS. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> Leaders of both teams will have 3 minutes each to summarize their thoughts. <@Lemonade> A1-alwayslost01 your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now. <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is the better leader as we have seen he has brought at least some rescue to the survivors <+A1-alwayslost> he has saved lives, not taken them <+A1-alwayslost> the losties who went with him are all still happy <+A1-alwayslost> and ALIVE <+A1-alwayslost> the ones who went with Locke are either dead or have deserted him <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is doing absaloutly everything in his power to get every single person off of the island <+A1-alwayslost> Locke is doing the exact opposite which is condeming them all to die on an uncharted island <@Lemonade> 1 minute left. <+A1-alwayslost> Jack is survival, he had helped 6 people make it off of the island, then Ji Yeon was born through his actions <+A1-alwayslost> and also <+A1-alwayslost> a vote for Team Jack is a vote against poverty and a vote against gun crime <+A1-alwayslost> because Jack is the saviour and the better leader, he has proved it countless times <@Lemonade> Thank you A1-alwayslost <@Lemonade> B1-TMBTC your time starts... <@Lemonade> Now <+B1-TMBTC> ladie and gentlemen. we have seen team A pressing the fact of jack saving 6 people. but they also say that everyone else is dead.. this makes jack a bad leader. so locke is instantly a better one, considering he tried to avoid the freighter. <+B1-TMBTC> in addition, we have seen locke giving food <+B1-TMBTC> sure jin can cook <+B1-TMBTC> what if he dies? <+B1-TMBTC> locke for leader <+B1-TMBTC> locke gives suggestions and advice <+B1-TMBTC> he does NOT force opinions <+B1-TMBTC> for example <+B1-TMBTC> charlie's drug addiction <+B1-TMBTC> jack's bedside manner sucks <+B1-TMBTC> even though he has seen his dad <+B1-TMBTC> he doesn't believe hurley <+B1-TMBTC> being a good leader means (in the case of LOST) wanting the best interest for the losties, and concurrently listening to the island <+B1-TMBTC> jack has the first ability <+B1-TMBTC> but locke has both <+B1-TMBTC> and day by day he is getting towards the balance <+B1-TMBTC> locke is the better leader <@Lemonade> 1 minute left <+B1-TMBTC> he even organised a party to go get Jack from othersville <+B1-TMBTC> while jack was playing piano tunes and playing american football <+B1-TMBTC> :p <+B1-TMBTC> in addition.. locke kept people out of denial <+B1-TMBTC> made them realise they are not alone <+B1-TMBTC> locke is <+B1-TMBTC> and will always be <+B1-TMBTC> the <+B1-TMBTC> man <@Lemonade> Thank you B1-TMBTC. <@Lemonade> <@Lemonade> That, ladies and gentlemen, concludes this week's event. <@Lemonade> I hope you had a great time! <@Lemonade> A poll will be opened on the lostpedia forums shortly, so please make sure you vote for your favorite team. <@Lemonade> I want to thank both teams and the viewers for joining us this afternoon. <@Lemonade> Thank you to our judges -- KittyLili, BauerUK, and Smiley, and to all OPs on lostpedia. <@Lemonade> A special thanks to TokyoRose for her hard work behind the scenes. <@Lemonade> Finally, a BIG thank you to all my friends on lostpedia who have been patient with the +m mode during this debate. <@Lemonade> We will see you next week with another action packed event! <@BauerUK> I'd just like to add, those who would like to look at the debate again to make their mind up -- the logs will be provided (in full) at http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Lostpedia:Archived_Debates <@Lemonade> Have a great week. This is your host Lemonade signing off. :-)
Event Winner
The winner of the May 18, 2008 debate: Team A (Arguing for Jack)
